Curse

Malice Black · Aug 05, 2006, 12:23 AM // 00:23

to me PvE is more rewarding...having a bambi/tigger is all well and good but i'd rather have cash in the bank and things to show...

also i dont have the time to be a hardcore PvP/GvG person..with my own business to run + a social life to fit in things like set practice times/matches just isnt possible for me

Sable Phoenix · Aug 05, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Alright, time for a little clarification.

It's not the elitism in PVP that turns me off from it. Elitism and poor sportsmanship is not exclusive to PVP. Even though the PVP environment fosters such attitudes more than PVE seems to, PVE still has its share of snobs and elitists. I can't stand these people either. The attitude in PVP that calls someone a "carebear" is the same attitude in PVE that calls someone a "noob". The attitude in PVP that demands a certain FOTM is the same attitude in PVE. I despise such attitudes no matter where they're found. My original post got a bit sidetracked into this.

My dislike of PVP and preference of PVE can be summed up much more succinctly. It all boils down to this:

In PVE, your objective is to have fun along with other players. In PVP, your objective is to have fun at the expense of other players.

In PVE, you all work together towards a common goal, and once you get it, everyone's happy. In PVP, no matter what happens, someone is going to be disappointed.

Sounds like the first one is a better deal.

Winstar · Aug 05, 2006, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

My two main reasons are...

It's not real PvP. You get an instant cookie cutter character that you can remake in five minutes. Real PvP is joined with PvE where you earn everything.
It takes no skill and has no real challenge. Games like Counter-Strike take real skill.

1) The point of having a pvp character slot to draw is that you don't have to have gone throught he grind of pve in order to get skills. This way people more interested in the pvp aspect of the game can jump in and be competative. If you want to try something new, make something new.

2) A number of us have at least gestured at why PvP elements, especially gvg, requrie a lot of skill and planning. I've yet to see any reasonable argument from the other side beyond merely saying "it doesn't require skill". Conclusions without any supporting premises aren't that persuasive.

PvP is like anything else in the world that is competative. If you can't have fun and learn even when you lose, you've got some growing up to do.

Symbol · Aug 05, 2006, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

This thread asked the question why I don't PvP. Well, I don't PvP (much) because in GW my personal skill is irrelevant, and I'm not a team player.

Except that this is bullshit. Your personal skill is very much relevant. Your knowledge of the battlefield, the ability to react quickly, the ability to make decisions quickly, the ability to assess the tactical situation (positioning, target selection, in particular), all of these are hugely important in GW pvp.

Your desire to be a superstar says nothing about whether skill is required, it just shows that you need to get over yourself.

Aera Lure · Aug 05, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

2) A number of us have at least gestured at why PvP elements, especially gvg, requrie a lot of skill and planning. I've yet to see any reasonable argument from the other side beyond merely saying "it doesn't require skill". Conclusions without any supporting premises aren't that persuasive.

PvP is like anything else in the world that is competative. If you can't have fun and learn even when you lose, you've got some growing up to do.

I can have fun while losing. No problem there. I just dont have fun PvP-ing, in any online context, GW included. That's just me. Only reason I post that is some people simply feel that way. The thread should not devolve into which is better, as this quote almost approaches that direction. I think its very clear that we all agree PvP in GW is among the best there is for online games of this sort. I wouldnt argue that myself.

art_ · Aug 05, 2006, 12:54 AM // 00:54

One of the reasons ive quit is that I realised that your winning in pvp is so loosely tied to 'skill' that is practically no relationship.

SisterMercy · Aug 05, 2006, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Old hands + 15-year-old opponents with the reflexes of weasels on meth = many splats.

That plus I have to cater to everyone else's idea of what my build should be, in order to be in a group at all.

Empex · Aug 05, 2006, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sable Phoenix

In PVE, your objective is to have fun along with other players. In PVP, your objective is to have fun at the expense of other players.

In PVE, you all work together towards a common goal, and once you get it, everyone's happy. In PVP, no matter what happens, someone is going to be disappointed.

If we are going to start doing silly logic like that then I guess we should start creating diagrams of enjoyment degrees from victory and so on?

Also it doesn't quite work like that. When I play pvp I have fun, even if I lose as long as the battle is well fought. Really, you can probably get really angry and bang at your keyboard but fact is this: Guild Wars doesn't really have any penalities for losing in PvP short of guild rating, which doesn't matter much unless you're competing for a place in the finals (and by then you're not reading a thread about not liking pvp).

Even battles resulting in a loss are fun to me, and I'm 50/50 pve/pvp. Really, there's always fun moments in most games where both parties have some degree of sportsmanship (and even if they haven't got it, the challenges you face is, to me, fun). Sure, there's morons here and there, but I find that even in RA I end up finding more people who are interested in a good time than people who are the whole silly "omg pwn"-stereotype. Really, the only times I almost get angry at people is pve where people seem to act like total morons in many PUGs. Thankfully it improves when you have a bit of chat with the people you are going to play with before you enter mission - something which is good advice for all types of play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by art_

One of the reasons ive quit is that I realised that your winning in pvp is so loosely tied to 'skill' that is practically no relationship.

That's pretty much trolling. Why do the same teams stay at the top of the ladder for each season then?

hated · Aug 05, 2006, 01:08 AM // 01:08

I uh, didn't really read all of this, sorry if I just go off of what the op said.

For me really though it's more of "why don't you pve?" maybe this is because I play an assassin, but the biased attitude of pve players really gets me steamed.

From what little I've read you guys are very into bashing the cookie cutter builds, I'm no fan of them myself but what about you guys in pve? Every time I see a group looking for people, it's always 2 wars, 2 monks, 2 eles, a necro, and someone luck enough to get into this "leet" group. Just a little hypocritical if you ask me.

What the poster said before me was right (albeit a tad rude), while it doesn't take a lot of skill to make a FotM build, it takes some doing to use it right and play the map correctly.

Now to be fair I don't really count RA and HA to be real pvp, at best it's a small step up over pve. Kill the other guy and that's it, there's no real tactics or alternate winning route, just mindless button mashing.

Now AB battles and FA I do consider pvp, while FA is fundamentally flawed at the moment it does a better job of pvp then RA or HA.

I don't know perhaps you guys should try that, it's more fun and doesn't involve you needing to be FotM. Hell I made a healing sin for FA and it worked, well actually that's just showing how bugged FA is.

*lemming* · Aug 05, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

I don't PvP because it's not rewarding enough. I don't get gold, no rare weapons etc, my characters won't get better. The only thing I can do is unlock stuff so that I can PvP even more...

For those who enjoy it, I'm pretty sure that PvP is its own reward.
Now obviously, some people don't enjoy fighting other players. Whether that's because they're nice people IRL who find the concept of battling other live humans repulsive, or because they don't

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Also, it's not challenging enough in my opinion - you make a character that is level 20 already, and with some luck (most builds are the same anyway) and a bit of teamwork you win (what do you win? Some faction, yay!).

Only when you're playing against Mending Wammos - the dregs of the PvE userpool.
Compared to PvP, how is PvE challenging? From your post, it seems that in your opinion, getting to level 20 is difficult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

PvE requires you to become stronger, find the weapon, craft the armor, get further in the game etcetera.

I believe that all that can be lumped under 'grind.'

Couple of questions for the PvEers:

1. There's a significant amount of complaining about being forced to take a particular build into GvG or HA.

However, this same rigidity regarding builds is also evident in some areas of PvE - I'm particularly thinking of 5-man Oro and 12-man Deep/Urgoz, where every member's skillbar and role in the party are pretty much fixed. The reason? Because changing the formula is likely detrimental to the party's success.

Is this acceptable in PvE but not in PvP?

2. If there were no "gogogogo" types, no "omfg noob" types, and no "lol i pwn u" types in PvP, would you be playing more PvP?

Aera Lure · Aug 05, 2006, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehlemming

1. There's a significant amount of complaining about being forced to take a particular build into GvG or HA.

However, this same rigidity regarding builds is also evident in some areas of PvE - I'm particularly thinking of 5-man Oro and 12-man Deep/Urgoz, where every member's skillbar and role in the party are pretty much fixed. The reason? Because changing the formula is likely detrimental to the party's success.

Is this acceptable in PvE but not in PvP?

No. At least not for me it isnt. I dont require anything out of those I PvE with when joining or running a random PUG other than they are able to speak somewhat politely when any of us asks a question. I may ask what sort of build they are running or skills they have so I can compensate in a way I think would best support, and I may ask for a certain skill depending on certain circumstances to be added to someone's lineup, but outside of that I rather enjoy seeing a variety of builds. In PvE play in my guild when I did more of that I was FAR more careful to be sure I had what the party leader desired.

Running a team setup with a specific strategy, as the examples you cite, is another story. There its advantageous to the team to fit into a role and obviously best if everyone communicates and is amiable to some changes to what they are used to. Things you experience very rarely is acceptance into a team if you ask a question about what you should bring, ie its assumed you therefore would immediately be a liability and hence you would be kicked. True in PvE and PvP in this case and that I frown on. Tell them what to bring and how to run it if they are willing and them bring them along, else tell them you have a team plan and need a role filled and please find a random PUG instead - you see this very rarely.

If I was new to a PvP team, I would EXPECT to be asked to run a certain build. That wouldnt surprise me in the least. I have no problem with that, speaking for myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehlemming

2. If there were no "gogogogo" types, no "omfg noob" types, and no "lol i pwn u" types in PvP, would you be playing more PvP?

I would be more inclined to maybe, but truth be told I still really dont like PvP online all that much as a game mechanic. Has nothing really to do with GW. If there was a lot less of that it would at least make experimenting in RA more enjoyable. As it is currently I dont bother.

Master Fuhon · Aug 05, 2006, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Reasons for not fully getting into PvP

1. I'll freely admit to hating FotM team builds. I only got this game around January 06, so I was starting around the time when everything was already discovered. I don't like copying, so I beg for skill rebalances.

2. I'm a casual gamer. Random arenas/alliance battles/Jade Quarry/Aspenwood are fun. Team arenas is like practice, but less fun. Heroes Ascent is grind. GvG is hard work; it's almost like a job to play, but it's fun to watch the better balanced teams.

3. There's no immersion in counting down to kills (spike) and spamming skills (smite/spirits), but that's where you have to start out in PvP. If I was already doing this all day I would most likely be paying for a Warcraft subscription right now.

4. I don't like games where the quick win is possible, and I'd rather see strategy play out. I suppose this game has to appeal to the highly competitive/high adrenaline type of crowd that craves another FPS. I was turned off by the unrealistic speed of these games, yet at the same time my fantasy world doesn't involve running around with guns and killing all of the time. (Healing/support FTW)

5. Most people I see in real life are World of Warcraft players who carry on conversations about epic items and high level raids. Rather than get bored out of my mind at these times, I split my time between playing GW and WoW both casually.

6. I can easily look at the previous five as being excuses, that any one day I can ignore and get into it. I used to like the odds of finding similar minded people across the vast expanse of the internet, but I can just as easily walk myself into the wrong corner filled with the types of people I'm trying to avoid. I'm not worried so much about getting whooped by some obsessively competitive 14-17 year old than I am about helping that guy thrash someone else so he can gloat about it.

7. PvE can actually be entertaining... to someone with alot of patience for working with the horrible players. So in a way, that's where I get my challenge.

Alleji · Aug 05, 2006, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by hated

Now to be fair I don't really count RA and HA to be real pvp, at best it's a small step up over pve. Kill the other guy and that's it, there's no real tactics or alternate winning route, just mindless button mashing.

Now AB battles and FA I do consider pvp, while FA is fundamentally flawed at the moment it does a better job of pvp then RA or HA.

Ok, I'm sorry. I was going to leave this thread in peace, but what you just said is... too... clueless, to put it in nice words.

First of all, it was incredibly ignorant to lump RA and HA into the same category. Now let's pick the bones:

HA is a small step up over PvE? (while AB is "real pvp", but i'll comment on that later) There's no strategy involved in HA? Just "kill the other guy"? My question is, had you actually ever played HA in an organized group, with voice communication? There is a lot of strategy to "kill the other guy". Mainly, who, when and how to kill. A warrior does not hack away at a monk for 5 minutes straight (perhaps with the exception of IWAY, but to be fair, even IWAY requires some coordination and a plan) until the rest of his team drops dead. A spike group does not select a random target and count "3, 2, 1". A mesmer doesn't simply camp an interrupt button on a single target.

Since HA is just a small step above PvE and it requires no real tactics, let's pretend you're in this situation: Sacred Temples, you're playing Blood Spike against IWAY. What's your initial plan? Oh wait, you probably haven't seen Sacred Temples... FYI, yes there is an alternative route to victory on 5 out of 9 maps in HA. You just haven't seen them because you never got past the first two.

HA takes the most skill in this game, with the exception of high-level GvG. Your real PvP is quite on the opposite end of the spectrum, and that's very easily illustrated by two examples:

1. I played an ineptitude mesmer in AvA. You'd be surprised how many times the following happened - A warrior or assassin charges at me. I hex him with ineptitude and spirit of failure. He... attacks. Those two icons in the corner of his screen say "you're completely useless and going to hurt yourself if you attempt to attack" Do they read them? Nope. Do they even know what those hexes do? Probably not. And at least 75% of the players in AvA behave like this. Quite sad, actually.

2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hated

Hell I made a healing sin for FA and it worked

I rest my case.

When you realize that "killing the other guy" does take skill and thinking, when you understand why your uber-awesome monster-owning A/Mo with healing breeze isn't cutting it and why you need to play a build that complements the rest of the team, then you'll be on the right track. For now, stick to "real PvP".

hated · Aug 05, 2006, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Ok, I'm sorry. I was going to leave this thread in peace, but what you just said is... too... clueless, to put it in nice words.

First of all, it was incredibly ignorant to lump RA and HA into the same category. Now let's pick the bones:

HA is a small step up over PvE? (while AB is "real pvp", but i'll comment on that later) There's no strategy involved in HA? Just "kill the other guy"? My question is, had you actually ever played HA in an organized group, with voice communication? There is a lot of strategy to "kill the other guy". Mainly, who, when and how to kill. A warrior does not hack away at a monk for 5 minutes straight (perhaps with the exception of IWAY, but to be fair, even IWAY requires some coordination and a plan) until the rest of his team drops dead. A spike group does not select a random target and count "3, 2, 1". A mesmer doesn't simply camp an interrupt button on a single target.

Since HA is just a small step above PvE and it requires no real tactics, let's pretend you're in this situation: Sacred Temples, you're playing Blood Spike against IWAY. What's your initial plan? Oh wait, you probably haven't seen Sacred Temples... FYI, yes there is an alternative route to victory on 5 out of 9 maps in HA. You just haven't seen them because you never got past the first two.

HA takes the most skill in this game, with the exception of high-level GvG. Your real PvP is quite on the opposite end of the spectrum, and that's very easily illustrated by two examples:

1. I played an ineptitude mesmer in AvA. You'd be surprised how many times the following happened - A warrior or assassin charges at me. I hex him with ineptitude and spirit of failure. He... attacks. Those two icons in the corner of his screen say "you're completely useless and going to hurt yourself if you attempt to attack" Do they read them? Nope. Do they even know what those hexes do? Probably not. And at least 75% of the players in AvA behave like this. Quite sad, actually.

2.

I rest my case.

When you realize that "killing the other guy" does take skill and thinking, when you understand why your uber-awesome monster-owning A/Mo with healing breeze isn't cutting it and why you need to play a build that complements the rest of the team, then you'll be on the right track. For now, stick to "real PvP".

You know, I'd reply if I gave a damn what you thought, but you're obviously worried that someone is going to think ill of you and your precious rank 9 emote.

So sorry I hurt your oh so easily broken pride, but I'm sure you'll feel better after you go play some HA and play the same build over and over again "farming" fame.

Oh and thanks for saying you like the idea of my healing sin, I can only assume that the lack of coherent thought after quoting me means you liked it. That or no one had shown you what to write yet, because you know originality and free thought are so uncommon in HA you must be starving for some.

*edit

To master fuhon I read the part where you were talking about first person shooters and fantasy and lack thereof, check out dark messiah of might and magic. It's kinda bugged right now, well really it hasn't even come out, but it looks really fun.

Winstar · Aug 05, 2006, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

I can have fun while losing. No problem there. I just dont have fun PvP-ing, in any online context, GW included. That's just me. Only reason I post that is some people simply feel that way. The thread should not devolve into which is better, as this quote almost approaches that direction. I think its very clear that we all agree PvP in GW is among the best there is for online games of this sort. I wouldnt argue that myself.

If you don't enjoy pvp type stuff in general, then no problem. Taste is taste. My quote was not intended to say that one is simply better as thats a matter of personal preference. As in Magic, some people enjoy a more casual approach to the game. The bottom line is that you should have fun doing as you wish. My post was only a response to a number of people who seemed to insist that 1) there is no skill in PvP which is rediculous and 2) that PvP is bad because unlike PvE someone has to lose and you make the game not fun for them by doing so. I stand by what I said in regards to this. Yes its competative and you will lose sometimes. But in general losing doesn't have to be a bad thing. Some of my most enjoyable matches have been tight losses. Watch and learn from your mistakes, respect the other team and your teammates instead of complaining. When you lose, apart from multiple error 7s, its generally because you were outplayed. Give your opponents their due.

Winstar · Aug 05, 2006, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by hated

You know, I'd reply if I gave a damn what you thought, but you're obviously worried that someone is going to think ill of you and your precious rank 9 emote.

So sorry I hurt your oh so easily broken pride, but I'm sure you'll feel better after you go play some HA and play the same build over and over again "farming" fame.

Oh and thanks for saying you like the idea of my healing sin, I can only assume that the lack of coherent thought after quoting me means you liked it. That or no one had shown you what to write yet, because you know originality and free thought are so uncommon in HA you must be starving for some.

*edit

To master fuhon I read the part where you were talking about first person shooters and fantasy and lack thereof, check out dark messiah of might and magic. It's kinda bugged right now, well really it hasn't even come out, but it looks really fun.

Actually, what he said made sense.

thesecondrei · Aug 05, 2006, 06:01 AM // 06:01

I don't play pvp because it is team based, I'd rather play solo type pvp like diablo 2 style pvp where you join a game, end up killing everyone while you are 1v8 and be accused in hacking when your truly not...there is really no satisfaction of owning somebody and being accused of aim-botting in gw, just fotm builds and prejudice against lower ranks.

Ken Dei · Aug 05, 2006, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Easy. They have TS, I don't, I never will. They can run the crazy precision builds, I can't, I never will. Even if I had TS and understood the crazy precision builds, I hate 90% of heavy PvPers for one reason, or another.

People keep saying "PvE's pointless, there's no reward." By those standards, PvP's equally useless and has even less reward....Ooooo, you've never done the mission, know nothing about the enemy, just started your PvE Char last week, but have a fancy Emote? Oooooo, well I guess I ought to bow down and kiss some ass Mr. Uber1337. Not. *Kicks Mr. Uber1337 from team.

For the record, I'm just kidding, but seriously, if PvE players wanted to be as Elitist about their end of the game as PvPers are about theres no one from either side would ever communicate outside AB.

Yes, Yes I am aware of the mild elitism in SOME parts of PvE, Sorrow's Furnace, FoW/UW, etc. But we can agree that everything about PvP is elitism.

Somehow I got into a tyraid about how much I hate Elitist...but yeah...PvP bad.

Livingston · Aug 05, 2006, 06:11 AM // 06:11

My top number one reason is because I like to solo.

If they brought in one on one arenas I would be there and I would play in them often.

Though I think the reason they haven't is because like other games that have them, that is the main grounds people usually give for one prof being better than others. If you can't go in with a certain profession and own every other one on a regular basis or if one profession can commonly own everyone else on a regular basis, everyone screams over or underpowered and mass nerfing happens. As is, with teams you can still say that they might not be as powerful in this or that but they are good at what they are supposed to be doing...

Besides that, I think there is a sense with a lot of people that its like this whole other world. If you start off in PvE you are a noob to begin with and you don't know what you are doing. But there is no pressure on you if you take some henchies into a zone and start testing it out. Then when you know what you are doing you start grouping with others. For most PvE is still familiar territory as most people playing this have been gaming since they were 4 on Nintendo and Segas, or even Ataris for those of my age and older. So when I first started playing even though I knew nothing about skill sets and good builds I still kicked the shit out of the AI mobs. Its a different story in PvP because you know that the other guys have been playing longer than you, know the builds, and know what they are doing.

There is a certain stigma with getting your ass handed to you by a real player compared to being beaten by an NPC. No one who has been playing video games for years wants to go in and be owned by another player, its just degrading. However, once you are in to PvP you realize that no matter how good you are (or think you are) you are going to get owned on a regular basis purely due to the circumstances of the game and its not really that big of a deal. It seems to me that people that haven't PvPed in MMOs have this feeling of not wanting to be killed by other players as its somehow more "real" than being killed by an NPC.

All it took for me was a couple of PvP special events to get me to jump into the water the first time and then I didn't have a problem with it. So I will PvP now from time to time though I mainly stick to PvE and faction PvP now.

Livingston

Ellipson · Aug 05, 2006, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Dei

Easy. They have TS, I don't, I never will. They can run the crazy precision builds, I can't, I never will. Even if I had TS and understood the crazy precision builds, I hate 90% of heavy PvPers for one reason, or another.

People keep saying "PvE's pointless, there's no reward." By those standards, PvP's equally useless and has even less reward....Ooooo, you've never done the mission, know nothing about the enemy, just started your PvE Char last week, but have a fancy Emote? Oooooo, well I guess I ought to bow down and kiss some ass Mr. Uber1337. Not. *Kicks Mr. Uber1337 from team.

For the record, I'm just kidding, but seriously, if PvE players wanted to be as Elitist about their end of the game as PvPers are about theres no one from either side would ever communicate outside AB.

Yes, Yes I am aware of the mild elitism in SOME parts of PvE, Sorrow's Furnace, FoW/UW, etc. But we can agree that everything about PvP is elitism.

Somehow I got into a tyraid about how much I hate Elitist...but yeah...PvP bad.

First of all, define elitism.

I define elitism as not being able to play my mesmer in PUG's in most, if not all areas. I had to enlist the trusty henchies to get through it.

Yes, I know that lots of PvP players are rigid in their thinking, but you don't think that applies to PvEers equally? There are elitists in HA as well, but when I go there, I can at least get a group. I may have to run something specific to compliment the group, but hey, at least I'm playing with people.